| Author | Subject: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu |
| setup_chelpa | Posted At 00:01:54 05/01/2005
Many claims and counter claims arise in this regard.Some claim its jain.Some claim its buddhist.SOmebody even claim it was christian.If we analyze thirukural we can find that it echoes vedas word by word.Not a single kural is against vedas.In fact we can say that thirukural is a tamil translation of the sanskrit vedas. It starts with "Mathrudevo bhava".Then it goes on to "pithru devo bhava". "Adhi,bhagavan muthatre ulagu......".No religion except hinduism worships mother and father.So in the first kural itself valluvar shows that kural is vedic based. Then he goes on with vedic dharmas.For example "Marappinum othukollal agum.PAARPAN PIRAPOLUKKAM kundra kedum..." He says here " Even if a bhramin forgets vedas its acceptable.But if he leaves his "pirapolukkam"(vedic dharmas) he will be totally ruined". Then he says the sign of society rottening as "aapayan kundrum,ARUTHOLILOR nool marappar, kavalan kaavan enin..." He calls bhramins as "arutholilor"(people with 6 duties).He says they will forget vedas,if king doesnt protect them.Sanskrit calls bhramins as "shat karma nirathar" meaning people with 6 duties. He mentiones various vedic gods."indirane salung kari..." and "thamarai kannan ulagu...".He mentions indra and vishnu.He mentions pancha yagnas in vedas as "thenpulathar deivam virunthokkal than endrangu impulathar ombal thalai..." And further he even mentions vedic principle of truth.Vedas defined truth as "sathyam buthahitham priyam..." meaning "words that cause benefit to society are truth...".Valluvar exactly said this principle as "vaimai enapaduvathu yaathenil yaathondrum theemai ilatha solal..." And he mentions padivratha dharma too.Vedas say that a padivratha need not worship any god or do anything except praying to her husband.Valluvar says this as "deivam thola al kolunan than tholuvaal peiyena peyum malai..." And yagnas are unique to only hinduism.He sings about them too.So to sum up he talks of so many things unique to hinduism like indra,vishnu,vaikunda,(thamarai kannan ulagu),bhramins,pathi vratha dharma,worshiping parents,pancha maha yagna etc.And word by word he echoes vedas.So we can say that thirukural is a complete vedic book. |
| vineeth |
Re: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu (Currently 0 replies)
Posted At 07:18:07 05/01/2005 EPPORUL YAAR YAAR VAAI KETPINUM APPORUL MEI PORUL KAANPATHU ARIVU So more important is taking right things than who has given it.... |
| rajmuthusamy |
Re: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu (Currently 0 replies)
Posted At 18:47:47 05/01/2005 Chellappa, In Thiruvalluvar's time, there was nothing called as Hindu religion. The present day Hinduism is an amalgamation of varied beliefs, chiefly 1. Shivism: which is indegeneous which propounds shiva as the chief god. 2. Vaishnavism: evolution of faiths originated from vedic aryans. However in later days, these two branches collobarated and embraced each other. Thiruvalluvar hailed from a priestly class of dravidians called valluvars. He was certainly a god believer but the terms you have shown are neutral. Just because kural and vedas share some ideas, we can not call kural as vedic. In fact none of the Sanskrit literature talk about Thiruvalluvar. Thiruvalluvar was not widely known to the world until Veeramamunivar translated his work in early 1700. There are people who believe that thirvalluvar was a Jain and some others as shivite. But his language is religious neutral to the most part. [angh Parivar is suffering from a disease called plagiarism. Stealing ideas or caling an attractive work as Hindu is not new. Thank god Jesus was born in Palestine. Otherwise they would definitely applied pattai nammam on his fore head and called him a vedic saint.] |
| kavariman |
Re: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu (Currently 0 replies)
Posted At 20:49:22 05/01/2005 It is wrong to say that vedic scriptures were vaishnavaite, cos Rudra is chiefly praised in Vedas and is Shiva. Vedas and Upanishads dont talk about Vishnu being the supreme god head. It was later actually that Shaivaite and Vaishnavaite divide became very strong! Tiruvalluvar cannot be a Jain since it talks more of God, while the Jain experience does not talk of God, it is mostly only about self. None of the verses of Kural corroborate any atheistic attitude. Hinduism is not a religion as defined by the west. Even if Hindus accept Jesus as one of their avatars its not plagiarism its universalism. Hinduism doesnt need to steal ideas. What Valluvar said or most saints said is all there to be experienced by everyone. Chellappa is trying to say that what Tirukkural says is same as what vedas and upanishads say and he is right. These vedantic ideals are not possession of one text, but experiences of all rishis and munis and siddhars, and can overlap. The whole section on thuravaram was practised by rishis all over India, the rules mentioned are all same in all the scriptures north to south. Read his adhikaaram on Oozh. Why does he talk of destiny? It isnt a big crime if Tiruvalluvar was a Hindu!! The world is not going to end! |
| setup_chelpa |
Re: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu (Currently 0 replies)
Posted At 21:44:04 05/01/2005 Thank god Jesus was born in Palestine. Otherwise they would definitely applied pattai nammam on his fore head and called him a vedic saint.] I am going to do something different about jesus.Wait for few days. |
| setup_chelpa |
Re: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu (Currently 0 replies)
Posted At 21:46:56 05/01/2005 Just because kural and vedas share some ideas, we can not call kural as vedic. In fact none of the Sanskrit literature talk about Thiruvalluvar. Thiruvalluvar was not widely known to the world until Veeramamunivar translated his work in early 1700. News to me.Who wrote thiruvalluva malai?Was it veeramamunivar?Valluvar was staunchly vedic.He wrote about vedic concepts word by word.I have listed all in my mail.refute them if possible.I challenge you. |
| commoner65 |
Re: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu (Currently 0 replies)
Posted At 23:04:46 05/01/2005 Well said RM!! "Mazhiththalum neettalum vaendaam, ulagam Pazhiththathu ozhiththu vidin" This is anti-vedic?? "Inna seythaarai oruththal avarnaana Nannayam seythu vidal" "Yaahavaaraayinum nakaaka kaavaakaal sohaappar Soll izhukkup pattu." This theme is from bible. Pulaal vunnaamai chapter from Jainism. No one know for sure what background was he from. But this seems plausible to me. As per one of his kural vineeth mentioned, he searched for the truth from whatever he heard from his jain, vedic-hindu, non-vedic, christian, buddhist and other friends and composed it into one book for the benefit of Tamils & Tamil language!! |
| setup_chelpa |
Re: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu (Currently 0 replies)
Posted At 23:59:07 05/01/2005 No one know for sure what background was he from. But this seems plausible to me. As per one of his kural vineeth mentioned, he searched for the truth from whatever he heard from his jain, vedic-hindu, non-vedic, christian, buddhist and other friends and composed it into one book for the benefit of Tamils & Tamil language!! christ himself was born 34 years after thiruvalluvar.Bible as we know was written after 70 or 80 eyars after jesus died.As far as jainism and buddhism are concerned they themselves were influenced by valluvar.Valluvar clearly wrote hindu gods by name as "thamarai kannan" and "indran".Now what is the answer to that? people simply assume and talk without evidence.I gave evidence from vallkuvar saying "arutholilor nool marappar" and "marapinum othukollal agum paarpan pirapolukkam kundra kedum"---why does nobody refute that? |
| setup_chelpa |
Re: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu (Currently 0 replies)
Posted At 00:00:18 05/02/2005 Mazhiththalum neettalum vaendaam, ulagam Pazhiththathu ozhiththu vidin" This is anti-vedic?? what is antivedic in that?can you explain it? |
| setup_chelpa |
Re: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu (Currently 0 replies)
Posted At 00:06:14 05/02/2005 valluvar has said "piravi kadal neendhuvar neendathar,iraivanadi seruvar serathar" rebirth doesnt exist in any other religion except hinduism and buddhism.Buddhism doesnt believe in god.The only religion which believes in reincarnation and god is hinduism.you guys lose.. |
| commoner65 |
Re: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu (Currently 0 replies)
Posted At 00:52:37 05/02/2005 Thiruvalluvar says "Pirappookum yella vuyitkkum Sirappokkum Seythozhil vetrumai yaan" Veda says people are born into four castes. I dont think Thiruvalluvar birth date is accurate. Still there is a remote possibility he came across christianity. Anyways, you cannot use that argument. Then I can also say vedic Aryan, in their attempt to prove their point, they moved Thiruvalluvar birth date, to conveniently exclude one religion. Param said Thiruvalluvar is a brahmin in one of his threads. Please refer to thread for my explanation - a mere mention of brahmin in one of his kural doesn't mean much. Params Poyyurai |
| setup_chelpa |
Re: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu (Currently 1 replies)
Posted At 09:54:33 05/02/2005 I dont think Thiruvalluvar birth date is accurate. Still there is a remote possibility he came across christianity. Anyways, you cannot use that argument. Then I can also say vedic Aryan, in their attempt to prove their point, they moved Thiruvalluvar birth date, to conveniently exclude one religion. thiruvalluvar's birthdate wasnt determined by aryans.It was determined by historians who were communists and staunch opponents of hinduism.There is not an ounce of probablity that he came across christianity or even heard about it. Valluvar doesnt MERELY mention bhramins.He says "cows will not give milk and bhramins will forget vedas if a king rules badly"...see what importance he gives to chanting of vedas. |
| Thamizhan |
Re: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu (Currently 0 replies)
Posted At 15:04:41 05/02/2005 vaNakkam setup-chelpa & others. setchel:"Valluvar was staunchly vedic.He wrote about vedic concepts word by word.I have listed all in my mail.refute them if possible.I challenge you.? listed in mail? please i need the copy of it sir (kaadpang@yahoo.co.uk)..I want to know how strong u r in your challenge! please.. Thamizhan at 01:33 AM IST on 3 may 2005 |
| setup_chelpa |
Re: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu (Currently 0 replies)
Posted At 17:28:00 05/02/2005 I mistyped it.I listed it in my post.For example he says the worst thing that can happen if a king is delinquent in his duty as "aa payan kundrm,aruthililor nool marappar, kavalan kaavan enin" meaning "If a king doesnt guard properly cows will stop secreting milk and bhramins will forget vedas". Next "Marappinum othukollal agum,paarpan pirapolukkam kundra kedum"--meaning "Even if a bhramin forgets vedas its accaptable,but if he leaves his bhrammana dharma everything is gone" |
| narayanee |
Re: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu (Currently 0 replies)
Posted At 11:29:42 05/03/2005 Appada! Param illath kurai ini meel pohum! Set up chelpa.. u go ahead... Also i feel relaxed in reading this because the copy right and patenting of Thiruvalluvar was usurped by muna.kaana. U go ahead chellapa! |
| commoner65 |
Re: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu (Currently 0 replies)
Posted At 12:01:30 05/03/2005 "Valluvar doesnt MERELY mention bhramins.He says "cows will not give milk and bhramins will forget vedas if a king rules badly"...see what importance he gives to chanting of vedas." - setup_c. It is not like Valluvar is giving more importance to Vedas or only giving importance to Vedas. As I said before in the other thread, Thiruvalluvar was using the then existing conditions to drive his point on something, in this case tyranny. He understood the spiritual need of a person. King's were ruling and brahmins or some sect "arutholizhar" were reponsible for guiding people in the spiritual direction that time. So his point is, under tyranny, people responsible, (who grew up cows, priests etc) who provide physical need and spiritual need, lack support from the ruler, which will have a "snowballing" effect on the people. This is in no way an endorsement of vedic or brahminism. He refers to king. Because they were at that time. Does that mean he endorses King's rule?? In another Kural he says, "Suzhantrum Yaer pinnathu vulagam", you think he endorse use of "Yaer" instead of tractor?? In the present context, this kural means subsidies to some businesses and support or tax relaxation to religious organizations! When he said "Pirappokkun yellaa vuyirkkum", he is opposition to vedic principle is very clear!! |
| Thamizhan |
Re: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu (Currently 0 replies)
Posted At 13:55:20 05/03/2005 vanakkam cmr65 and others. u r right cmr65..ippothaan naan "TAHMIZXAR VALARTHTHA ULKACH SAMAYA NERIKAL-THAMZHARIN PERUNGKODAI/TAMILS CONTRIBUTIONS TO WORLD RELIGIONS-TAMILS PREEMINENT PLACE" nnu, Thiru.A.Velu Pillai, P.N.Muthtukumaarasamy, Su.Pa.ANNaamalai, Ma.Po.Sivagnam, Era.Nagasaamy, T.S.Sripal, U rasul Mohaideen , John G.samuel invanga yellam uezthuthiya katturaiyai pages 1525 to 1588 tamil/1589 to 1663 padiththukondu uLLEn.. set up chelpapa is wrong to make the claim of 'we analyze thirukural we can find that it echoes vedas word by word.Not a single kural is against vedas.In fact we can say that thirukural is a tamil translation of the sanskrit vedas." orignally tamils had nothign to do with vedism is weel expounede in this essay adverted to above. setccyhel, param3 , narayanee r seeking salavge the alien vedhism by importing new cpncepts like the thread.. keek questioing them cmr65. anbudan Thamzihan at 00:24 AM IST on 4 may 2005 |
| Thamizhan |
Re: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu (Currently 0 replies)
Posted At 13:55:23 05/03/2005 vanakkam cmr65 and others. u r right cmr65..ippothaan naan "TAHMIZXAR VALARTHTHA ULKACH SAMAYA NERIKAL-THAMZHARIN PERUNGKODAI/TAMILS CONTRIBUTIONS TO WORLD RELIGIONS-TAMILS PREEMINENT PLACE" nnu, Thiru.A.Velu Pillai, P.N.Muthtukumaarasamy, Su.Pa.ANNaamalai, Ma.Po.Sivagnam, Era.Nagasaamy, T.S.Sripal, U rasul Mohaideen , John G.samuel invanga yellam uezthuthiya katturaiyai pages 1525 to 1588 tamil/1589 to 1663 padiththukondu uLLEn.. set up chelpapa is wrong to make the claim of 'we analyze thirukural we can find that it echoes vedas word by word.Not a single kural is against vedas.In fact we can say that thirukural is a tamil translation of the sanskrit vedas." orignally tamils had nothign to do with vedism is weel expounede in this essay adverted to above. setccyhel, param3 , narayanee r seeking salavge the alien vedhism by importing new cpncepts like the thread.. keek questioing them cmr65. anbudan Thamzihan at 00:24 AM IST on 4 may 2005 |
| setup_chelpa |
Re: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu (Currently 1 replies)
Posted At 19:02:55 05/03/2005 Thamizan It was very funny to read your explanation for "aapayan kundrum,arutholilor nool marappar..." kural. what is your explanation for "ANDHANAR enbor aravor,,marraveyuirkkum sendhanmai poondolukalan" and kural number 544 "ANDANAR noorkum arathirkum athiyayi nindrathu mannan kol?" meaning for the "book of bhramins(vedas) and everything else, the king's virtue is the base?" see how valluvar equates vedas with everything else?see the importance he gives to it? |
| commoner65 |
Re: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu (Currently 0 replies)
Posted At 22:40:09 05/04/2005 "keek questioing them cmr65." - Thamizhan. Vanakkam Thamizhan! I will. They will not quit from these false propaganda. At least we can keep them under control this way! |
| KVK |
Re: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu (Currently 0 replies)
Posted At 17:58:02 05/05/2005 Amam, Christianity support, dravidian support ithellam right propoganda, anything hindu, unifying india, anything to do with vedas is all false propaganda.Ivanga control pannaraangalam, ithukku Tamizhan, RM, Pandian ellarum ching chaang poduvaanga. Pongappa ithellam oru discussion..false what u dont accept..what doesnt reach ur limited intellect is lies, if science doesnt proove anything its false (good understanding of science should mean that there are still many things modern science hasnt proved and cannot prove yet, cos its still limited). Find REAL TRUTH if u want, or if some divine blessing falls ur way to open up ur intellects to truths!! Till then be blessed with ignorance to call everything false propoganda and go behind pinkos, commies and missionaries.They will be glad to have such brainwashed Hindus and Tamilians! |
| ruiner |
Re: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu (Currently 0 replies)
Posted At 19:16:40 05/05/2005 Correcting a few misconceptions: c65 said: 1. "Thiruvalluvar says "Pirappookum yella vuyitkkum Sirappokkum Seythozhil vetrumai yaan" Veda says people are born into four castes." Let us see few other kuraLs: 1. KuraL 133 -> Good conduct is a sign of higher birth 2. KuraL 134 -> A brahmin can learn the vedas if he forgets it. If he loses good conduct all is lost. 3. KuraL 351 -> Sign of low birth -- mistaking transitory things for real 4. KuraL 409 -> An uneducated person of higher birth is still lower than educated person of lower birth. 5. KuraL 681 -> Noble birth given as one of requirement for a king's messenger. Whoa Betsy! Now Valluvar is a casteist, as he mentions higher and lower births? Or is he contradicting himself? The whole confusion ceases when we see KuraL 972 in context (Perumai adigaram). This adigaram is on the quality of noble soul called 'greatness'. Sign of greatness is modesty and lowness vanity; ignores the weakness of others etc. In this context, the sign of greatness is to see equality in all "piRavis" or creatures -- Which is exactly what vedanta teaches. A realized soul will see a tree, a dog, a brahmana, a chandala, the whole universe as equal -- within oneself. The very next KuraL 973 mentions that if people of higher birth lack greatness, they no longer belong 'there' and if people of lower birth have it, they no longer belong 'there' either. So it should be obvious that marxist version of egalitarianism in kuraL is a pipe dream. |
| ruiner |
Re: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu (Currently 0 replies)
Posted At 19:16:53 05/05/2005 2. "..he searched for the truth from whatever he heard from his jain, vedic-hindu, non-vedic, christian, buddhist and other friends..." People who spout this nonsense should provide evidence to back this up. Again let us see some kuraLs. It is simply a rehash of my previous post in literature forum addressed to Mr. Tamizhan. He conveniently forgot to reply. 1. KuraL 413 -> People who receive "seviyuNavu" (wisdom) compared to devas who received "aviyuNavu" - havishyannam. Offering 'havis' oblation to devas is a distinctive vedic practice. Haviryaga is one of the 3 types of yaga. 2. KuraL 25 -> Indra himself praises the ascetics. Indra, the Rig vedic God is mentioned by name. 3. KuraL 617 -> Ill luck will be there with lazy fellow. With a person with manly effort, lotus-seated Goddess Lakshmi would stay. 4. KuraL 543 -> King's sceptre should protect the virtues and vedas of brahmins. The statement about a brahmin forgetting his vedas is already mentioned above. Now, Valluvar mentions vedic god by name, displays aspects of 'hindu culture' and mentions the importance of brahmin's learning. I have provided necessary evidences from KuraLs themselves. If somebody claims Valluvar learned good things from buddhists, jains, jehova witnesses, mormons and african Yorubas, they should back that claim with evidence. Nowhere he mentions samaNars who are well known for their absolute ahimsa - even in "pulAl maRuthal" adigaram. He could have easily mentioned it there. He doesn't mention anywhere about bodhi dharma, anatta: non-self, or buddhist sanghas or uses buddhist terminology, though he mentions fire oblations to devas, Rig vedic god Indra, lakshmi, vedas and the like. One cannot claim both - (a) brahmins were spiritual people during valluvar's time. So, one should not take 'brahmins per se' when he mentions that brahmins should be protected by the King, as well as (b) he learnt good things from bauddhas, jains and the like. We have a contradiction - either bauddhas and jainas were non-existent during valluvar's time and he did not mention them or they indeed were there and he even learnt a few good things from them; but did not find them 'spiritual enough' so that he excluded them and mentioned only brahmins worthy to be protected by the king. Pick your choice. Regds... |
| kavariman |
Re: Thiruvalluvar was a staunch hindu (Currently 0 replies)
Posted At 20:38:38 05/05/2005 Excellent points Ruiner. Very composed and very well elucidated!! Regards |